Helmut Voigt
2009-05-17 19:06:38 UTC
jan ali o, toki!
kulupu nimi "ilo ni li pi sina" li ike mute tawa mi tan ni: "li" precedes a predicate (verb or verbal adjective) but not "pi". pi is used to make clear that an specifying addition comprising at least two words relates to the preceding basic word (such as "tomo tawa pi sike mute") which denotes that "sike mute" is related to "tomo tawa" and not to "tomo" alone. I would translate "this tool is yours" as "ilo ni li ilo sina". If the object possessed is a longer expression, I think the "sina jo e..." form is good.
Regarding "sina pali seme e ni", I'm not sure whether this is acceptable tp at all because the meaning "what did you do with it" would make "what" a direct object (e seme), and we would have to find a nice solution for "with it" (tawa ni?) So, I would propose "sina pali e seme tawa ni" just to avoid the wordy "kepeken nasin seme" construction.
jan Elumutu
--- jan_sewe <***@laposte.net> schrieb am Fr, 15.5.2009:
Von: jan_sewe <***@laposte.net>
Betreff: [tokipona] Re: mi sona ale li toki pona
An: ***@yahoogroups.com
Datum: Freitag, 15. Mai 2009, 14:36
mi sona ala e ali pi toki pona (I don't know everything about TP)
mi ken ala toki pona lon toki pona (I can't speak well in TP)
mi sona pona ala e toki pona (I don't know TP well)
You have to split your sentence up when it's too complicated to be expressed without a la-clause. And if it still remains too complicated, then just try to say the same thing in a simpler way.
The syntax "ilo ni li pi sina" is a clever invention of jan Pije's, but I'm not sure many of us do use it actually. Most of the time, TP will force you to speak more directly.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kulupu nimi "ilo ni li pi sina" li ike mute tawa mi tan ni: "li" precedes a predicate (verb or verbal adjective) but not "pi". pi is used to make clear that an specifying addition comprising at least two words relates to the preceding basic word (such as "tomo tawa pi sike mute") which denotes that "sike mute" is related to "tomo tawa" and not to "tomo" alone. I would translate "this tool is yours" as "ilo ni li ilo sina". If the object possessed is a longer expression, I think the "sina jo e..." form is good.
Regarding "sina pali seme e ni", I'm not sure whether this is acceptable tp at all because the meaning "what did you do with it" would make "what" a direct object (e seme), and we would have to find a nice solution for "with it" (tawa ni?) So, I would propose "sina pali e seme tawa ni" just to avoid the wordy "kepeken nasin seme" construction.
jan Elumutu
--- jan_sewe <***@laposte.net> schrieb am Fr, 15.5.2009:
Von: jan_sewe <***@laposte.net>
Betreff: [tokipona] Re: mi sona ale li toki pona
An: ***@yahoogroups.com
Datum: Freitag, 15. Mai 2009, 14:36
...which, if I said it right, should mean "I don't know how to speak well." Not sure how I would say "...in the language Toki Pona."
According to what you really mean, there are several possibilities:mi sona ala e ali pi toki pona (I don't know everything about TP)
mi ken ala toki pona lon toki pona (I can't speak well in TP)
mi sona pona ala e toki pona (I don't know TP well)
In lesson 11, we learn that you can say
sina pali e ni kepeken nasin seme? -- You made this using what method? How did you make this?
...but, could you also say
sina pali seme e ni
You made (in some manner I don't know) this? In what manner did you make this?
Of course, it's not quite the same question as by what method did you make this - I'm simply curious if it's a legitimate formation.
The sentence "sina pali seme e ni" doesn't really mean "How did you make this?" but rather "What did you make with this?". "kepeken nasin seme" is actually the best translation of "how". I sometimes use "sama seme" (like what) but it's not as clear.sina pali e ni kepeken nasin seme? -- You made this using what method? How did you make this?
...but, could you also say
sina pali seme e ni
You made (in some manner I don't know) this? In what manner did you make this?
Of course, it's not quite the same question as by what method did you make this - I'm simply curious if it's a legitimate formation.
Also...
ma li pona lukin tawa mi
"the countryside is good looking to me"
...is this properly formatted? I'm trying to understand the 'no clause' aspect of the language, but this confuses me. Could somebody point to some examples of which sentences need to be split up when translated and which don't?
"ma li pona lukin tawa mi" is good Toki Pona, but it will be heard with the intended meaning "the countryside is good looking to me" only if you're indeed watching the coutryside, or if there's a picture of it above your text, or if you've already been speaking about the coutryside, and so on. In Toki Pona it's the context that makes the meaning. Adding a precision like "ma ni" can be usefull, if not indispensable.ma li pona lukin tawa mi
"the countryside is good looking to me"
...is this properly formatted? I'm trying to understand the 'no clause' aspect of the language, but this confuses me. Could somebody point to some examples of which sentences need to be split up when translated and which don't?
You have to split your sentence up when it's too complicated to be expressed without a la-clause. And if it still remains too complicated, then just try to say the same thing in a simpler way.
The syntax "ilo ni li pi sina" is a clever invention of jan Pije's, but I'm not sure many of us do use it actually. Most of the time, TP will force you to speak more directly.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]